Brief note on the generation gap

I meant to mention something interesting that came up in the mock interview experience: the straight-out-of-college (or close to it) young women in my class who participated were chagrined to learn that the skirt-suit was considered a more conservative choice than the pants-suit, as a number of them consciously chose to buy pants suits. Their reasoning? Pants have to be more conservative than skirts, because with skirts you're showing your legs, and pants, you're not. Flashing your gams, they reasoned, can't be the more conservative choice.

I just thought this was a funny generation-gap moment, because I realized that I was old enough vaguely to remember that pants suits on women had been a big deal, and to realize that for the truly stuffy traditional, skirts are always the most appropriate wear for women.

And that these classmates had no awareness of that attitude at all.

Comments

[Anastasia]

don't they watch television? That's all the commentators could talk about with Sen. Clinton running around in pantsuits.

[Dr. Moonbeam]

My youngest aunt, born in 1960, had an elementary school teacher (for 3rd grade, I think, or 4th, so about 1969 or 1970) who absolutely insisted that girls must wear skirts; this was in fact still school policy at the time. During that year, however, the school administration decided that it would be acceptable to allow girls to wear trousers. My aunt's teacher reluctantly announced this in class, and stated that she hoped none of her girls would do such a thing. My aunt went home for lunch (as usual) and returned to school after lunch wearing trousers - she was a tomboy type and much happier in trousers than skirts.

That wasn't so very long ago! It's quite remarkable how quickly attitudes can change from one generation to the next.

[New Kid on the Hallway]

Anastasia - I'm pretty sure most of these students were Obama supporters from the beginning, and not paying much attention to what Clinton was wearing!

Dr. Moonbeam - yeah, this just made me realize that these students are a whole other generation away from such stories!

[Seeking Solace]

My first appearance in Federal Court was before a judge who did not like women to wear pants in his courtroom. He insisted that women should were skirts. He was know for making comments if a woman showed up in pants.

Well, the day I had to appear for a motion hearing, it was 20 degrees outside and snowing like crazy. I had to walk five blocks in that mess..in my skirt. I knew better than to test this guy.

[Dr. Rural]

You have to admit, though . . . the young ladies' line of reasoning makes perfect sense.

[urbanartiste]

My first teaching job was at a former secretarial school turned private college. There was a dress code for both faculty and students. I was told that they had just changed the policy that women could wear pants. This was 1999. I told them it was good thing they changed the policy because they would have fired me for wearing pants. I dress for the present not the past. I still can't believe how pantsuits were such an issue during the election.

[Thoroughly Educated]

I had that elementary school teacher, too, in 1970! She made her kindergarten girls wear skirts, contrary to school policy and the wishes of the parents who wanted us to be warm on the walk to school.

I know when I was applying for, and holding, my first post-college jobs in the late 80s and early 90s, it didn't even need to be said that we were to wear skirt suits.

What's most striking to me about your anecdote, NK, is that it suggest these young women have simply not been exposed to enough suit-wearing women of any kind to get the difference. Or, on the upside, they've seen Hillary in her pants suits and figured that's the highest-level model, without hearing all the commentary.

[Bardiac]

Growing up in the 60s, my Mom didn't allow me to wear pants to school. I didn't own a pair of jeans until I was in my mid teens, and then was only allowed to wear them to riding lessons. (I was allowed to wear slacks in high school.)

And now, I never wear anything but slacks or jeans. (Or shorts, I suppose, though it's hard to believe it could ever be warm enough for shorts when 20F seems like a warm day...)

When people are nostalgic for the 50s/60s, I think they're nuts for more than just one reason!

[Historiann]

That is hilliarious, NK. We're just about exactly the same age, and I have never thought before your post that young women today are totally innocent of dress codes that required skirts or dresses. That is just amazing to me.

From a fashion standpoint: suits really aren't cutting-edge fashion these days, in either the skirt or the pants version. However, skirt suits are considered a bit more fashionable--Sarah Palin had a fabulous collection and wore them well, for example. I'd have opted for the skirt suits. (Pantsuits are never really in style, they're just sometimes less out of fashion, sometimes way out of style.)

[profgrrrrl]

Wow. It never would have occurred to me to consider pants the more conservative choice!

[helenesch]

Yeah--this is really funny! I'm 39, which makes me around your age, I think. I never wore skirts growing up (and still don't really like them), and the thought of wearing a skirt with panty hose is awful--but is what I would assume would be the standard "conservative" interview attire (for a field outside academia). How funny that your classmates think otherwise...

[Dr. Virago]

NK, tell your classmates that at the law firm where I worked in the early 90s, the women had to petition the partners to allow us to wear pantsuits. We made a persuasive case and were finally allowed to ditch the skirts if we wanted.

Dr. Rural -- Actually, no, it doesn't make sense in terms of the history of women in the workplace. Skirts mark women as different and sexualize them, therefore they are more conservative in terms of gender history -- that is, they participate in the "conservation" of a gender hierarchy.

It seems these younger women also haven't been exposed to conservative religious groups where women are banned from wearing pants. Of course, there's not a lot of leg showing under their skirts.

[jo(e)]

When I went to a funeral this year, I wore a suit because I'd come from a function where a suit was appropriate. My mother, who rarely sees me dressed up, kept saying, "You're wearing a PANTS SUIT!"

And that seemed so strange to me. I have always called a suit just a suit.

After I figured out what the heck she was talking about, I started going up to all the men I knew and saying, "Hey! You're wearing a PANTS SUIT!"

[kellyinkansas]

interesting . . . .

[daiskmeliadorn]

wow - weird! and awesome :)
only about 10 years ago, when i was in year 10 (in Australia - aged 16), our careers advisor told us we had to wear skirts during the week of work experience everyone had to do. i thought she was crazy and stupid but everyone else seemed to think that was reasonable

[Rev Dr Mom]

I love jo(e)'s comment!

I wasn't allowed to wear pants to school until I was a senior in high school. My older sister couldn't wear pants to class her first year in college.

I have to say that I have always rebelled against this sort of dress-code and the underlying rules--like you should understand that skirts are more "conservative" than pants. And I've never owned an actual "suit"--even when I interviewed for academic jobs (I wore a skirt and blazer but it wasn't a suit).

And frankly my choice of suitable professional dress is also dictated by the weather. Why should women be expected to wear a skirt in 20 below temperatures?

[Susan]

I was in junior high school when dress codes that prevented girls from wearing pants were ruled illegal in NY. So I brought the cutting to school, wearing as I recall some appalling purple flowered jeans... the principal grudgingly allowed me to continue...

[Professor Zero]

I find womens' pantsuits terribly stuffy and Republican, always have, they remind me of leisure suits for men, and I would never wear one. It is possible to create an elegant outfit with pants and a jacket but I have never seen a "pantsuit" that pulled this off in any way.

I am horrified now to hear from colleagues in Women's Studies that wearing a suit involving a skirt to an interview can lose candidates the job. You have to have a pantsuit, they say, otherwise you are politically incorrect. WTF??? Pantsuits are frickin' ugly, I repeat.

[Earnest English]

Oy! It's hard to believe that there are people who weren't regaled with stories about how women had to wear skirts to school at one point (my mom's age). Now that I think about it, I did not see skirt-suits at MLA though. It was all pantsuit all the time. Hmmmm. I wonder what that means.

[belle lettre]

In law school on the West Coast, just a few years ago, conservative skirt suits were the norm and pantsuits were wildly aberrant. You were strongly discouraged from anything else, especially for interviews with judges. In post-doc law school, also on the West Coast, pant suits are much more common now, because we are like, liberal here.

I prefer skirt suits, except that my legs get cold, to be honest, but feel vaguely old school for even thinking so. Nowadays I wear both, and usually wear pants to conferences so I can stay warm, but usually wear skirts to interviews. Yet that anecdote about the Women's Studies pants-norm really rankles me to the core. Choice! Let us choose pants or skirts!

[New Kid on the Hallway]

Thanks for all the comments, everyone! Nice to know I'm not insane... just old. ;-)

I'd have chalked this ignorance up to one person's quirks, but I got that line from a number of students. It was fascinating.

Dr. Rural - I do take your point, and totally get these students' logic - I meant this post sympathetically, not in a "omg how could they not know that!!" way. But it is funny, or maybe I should say interesting, that one generation sees pants as conservative and one generation sees them as transgressive, but for the same reason - because they erase distinctions between women and men.

As for preferring one or the other - well, I have a harder time finding pants that fit me, so I prefer skirts for that reason. I think if you have a nicely cut jacket and a nicely cut pair of pants, the fact that they match doesn't preclude them looking elegant. But I'm so outside of the suit circle that I really don't know how to judge them - unless they're butt-ugly hideous, I tend to go, "Dressy! nice!"

And no, I don't think suits are remotely on the edge of fashion. Which is the whole point, of course, for interviewing law students - it's the Ms. Mentor "they shouldn't remember you for your clothes" mentality writ large. Thou shalt not stand ou! (The friend I went shopping with on the first abortive trip was completely bummed because there was a GORGEOUS red suit, a light boucle-type fabric, with a satin ribbon for a belt, and she tried it on, and looked GORGEOUS in it. But as she kept saying, "We have to wear black!" - the career office duns this into our heads. Now, if I'd found a suit that fit and flattered me that was gray or navy or pinstriped, I don't think I'd have let the career people sway me - but it just turned out that what looked best on me was black. There was a gorgeous suit in brown plaid with hint of teal that I'd have bought in a heartbeat, but they didn't have my size.)

Prof. Zero, the anti-skirt thing is kind of horrifying (partly because, as I said, they just look better on me). I remember a prof coming to lecture when I was in grad school - some fellow students and I took her out to lunch, and she was amazed (in a good way) that we could be women's historians and still wear makeup/skirts - where she was, if you wore makeup/skirts you were A Tool of the Patriarchy. But that was quite a while ago! I thought the whole point of feminism was choice??

Rev Dr Mom, I was always a non-suit jacket blazer and skirt person, too (for one thing: my top and bottom are different sizes!). I, on the other hand, have always been someone who's tried to figure out the rules so I can live by them. I'm a great big chicken that way. :-P

Earnest, that's interesting about MLA... I'm trying to remember what I've seen at the AHA; definitely more skirts, I think, but the last time I went was 2004...

I will say I think that pants avoid the problem some people not experienced in suits can fall into, which is the inappropriately dressy/sexy - you know, wearing the evening suit kind of thing which is more wedding-y than professional-looking.

[fester]

I remember it was in the 4th grade when girls could 1st wear pants to school - public school - I remember some of the most god-awful pants - the 60's. Kids, what can you do with them?

[k8]

My guess, in terms of the MLA scene, is that people are trying to not show too much leg. A lot of suit skirts can verge on showing a bit too much when you sit down (at least, for an interview that might involve sitting lord-knows-where in some hotel room). Pants also let you avoid the shiny-knees-from pantyhose-experience.

I had an old-fashioned grandmother who would make many comments if my sister or I went out with her and we were wearing pants instead of a skirt or dress. Personally, the lengths of skirts that look best on me don't work well with suit jackets, so I've gone with pants. Plus, interviewing in winter in cold climates, I'd rather wear pants (and possibly silk long underwear underneath).

But then, I imagine a difference between law interviews and campus/academic interviews is that in the campus interview you might have to hike around the campus. My shoes that I wear with pants are much more sensible in these cases than the one's I wear with my skirts.

[helenesch]

Sorry to post again on this topic, but I just thought I'd mention that I have never, in my life, worn or owned an actual "suit" (pants or skirt). On the job market (in philosophy), I got by just fine with dress pants and a jacket. I've realized in the decade since (having sat on the "other side" of the table) that many candidates do wear suits, but I don't think it's required.

I know that the legal profession is different, but I'm kind of surprised that everyone here has so much experience with suits. (Maybe most posters have had--or interviewed--for non-academic jobs...?)

[urbanartiste]

I just thought of something else that relates to this topic - color of suits. When I graduated college my mom purchased two skirt suits in Navy and Grey. Women were not supposed to wear black for men might feel threatened. After I started working I was surprised to see so many young women interview in black pant suits. There is an entire color code for women's suits.

Palin probably favored the skirt suits to keep with the gender issues within the Republican party. I loved Hillary's brown suit with teal shell combo.

[Sisyphus]

Well, I'm out in California, where the whole miniskirt-with-ugg-boots party dress code has finally gone out of style ... to be replaced with satin hot pants and ugg boots. So I can totally see why the younger generation would assume that a covered leg (and ass) would be the conservative, business dress choice.

And I'm unable to mentally picture what pants and a jacket but not a suit would look like ... are you clashing or something? I am confused. I've worn dress pants and a really quality sweater to conferences, but I don't get what you're describing... maybe I don't know what a "suit" is.

[New Kid on the Hallway]

Sisyphus - suit = exact same fabric, so jacket & pant match; pants & jacket that are not a suit = different fabrics (red jacket, black pants; black jacket, gray plaid pants; burgundy jacket, brown pants, etc.)

I also love the way California gets talked about like its own separate universe! :-)

[Lisa]

Being as I am fresh out of college, I would like to note that Thoroughly Educated has the reason exactly wrong. I have seen many women wearing suits. I have seen very few of them wearing skirt-suits. The only time I have ever seen a woman whose appearance wasn't relevant to her job (like recruiting, getting re-elected, or waitressing) wear a skirt is when she is 'dressing up' - if she is going to a ball, or on a fancy date, or to religious services. Or if she's going out looking for male attention.

So, "professional" and "pretty" do not go together in my head. If you would wear it to a bar or a club, you shouldn't wear it to work! And all the suit-skirts I've seen are pretty short, too. If they had a nice ankle-length skirt with a jacket I might be interested.

I always assumed the big deal with Hillary's pantsuits was that they were brightly-colored and ugly. Seriously, you are going to cover your entire body in purple? Or orange? It's like if her husband were wearing a white suit.

Man, I love being an engineer. As I sit here in my polo-shirt, jeans, and fleece jacket. I should totally get a tool belt.