Indecision

You know how I mentioned before that I was 95% certain I'm going to law school here, so that I don't have to move away from NLLDH? I'm still 95% sure, but I'm going nuts because I still can't quite pull the trigger. I'm deciding between Here and Away, and I keep going back and forth. I'm supposed to have decided by now, but I asked for extensions from both schools because I can't quite decide.

It seems like it should be a straightforward decision for Here. They're pretty comparable schools, with no real edge to one or the other. Both Here and Away offer programs in the legal fields that really interest me. They're separated by two measly rankings on the all-important US News & World  Report rankings (Here is ranked slightly higher). I've visited both, and I very much liked the students and faculty and sense of community at both. Given that, it seems to make more sense that I should attend Here, since one of the reasons to go to law school in the first place is that it's a (slightly) more portable field than academia or the sort-of-connected-to-academia field in which NLLDH now works, and I'm not willing to live apart from my husband for a job any more. If I go to law school Here, I don't have to. (Plus, I REALLY like the weather better Here than Away. A lot of people in this country move to Away specifically for the weather, but I like winter, I like snow, and while I could give them up for 75-degrees year-round, it's the 90+ and 100+ degree days that slay me; I'll take my bad weather cold.)

But I can't quite pull the trigger and reject Away, and here's why: they really want me to go there. I'm a huge sucker for flattery, and Away is good at it. They've offered me a generous scholarship. (Cost-wise, the scholarship isn't a deal-sealer; it doesn't make Away cheaper than Here, it just makes Away's cost comparable to Here's in-state tuition. So financially, the scholarship makes it possible to attend Away over Here, but it doesn't make it a significantly better deal. Psychologically, however, the scholarship is a big deal.) When I visited Away, the dean of admissions knew who I was instantly and was incredibly welcoming. And I came home today from a message on the machine from the Away admissions dean, checking to see if I'd made a decision and reiterating how much they'd like to see me attend.

Here has been quite a bit more blase about my charms. No money (in theory it's still a possibility, but nothing has been forthcoming yet). The admissions dean was very pleasant, but didn't have my application info at her fingertips when I introduced myself and has generally been harder to get hold of and less responsive. I mean, Here has admitted me, I think they'd be happy to have me, but I don't get this sense that they'd be so! super! excited! to have me attend that Away exudes.

But here's the thing: one of the things I started wondering today was how much my immersion in academia is skewing my reaction to Away and Here. For instance, it was so drilled into me that you should never attend graduate school without funding that I think the scholarship offer weighs more heavily in my mind that perhaps it should. (Face it, either way I'm going to go into debt; the scholarship just makes Away comparable to Here, not actually less expensive.) In my grad program, there was something of a distinction between those who had funding and those who didn't; the latter were continually scrambling for it and I think they sometimes felt considered second-class citizens in the department. I don't think the same situation holds in law school at all. Sure, scholarships are good, it's nice to feel wanted, but full-rides are rare, and the common assumption is that all will be going into debt together. Funding in my grad program meant that I got TA experience, which was seen as a bonus for future employment; law school funding doesn't provide any experience that I can't get if I pay my way. And having a scholarship is certainly no guarantee of landing in the top 10% of my class, nor does not having one mean I can't.

I also have to remind myself that I'm not interviewing for an academic job; while a school's degree of enthusiasm is important, this isn't like trying to determine how well I'll fit in a department of 10 or 12 historians. I am going to be one of many students, and we'll all be judged by our performance, not by our pre-enrollment reputation among the admissions people. It's perhaps worth mentioning here that law school courses are all graded on a curve, and law school students are ranked by GPA. There's no "everyone pretty much gets an A," as in most Ph.D. programs. So however smart I look to admissions people now, it really won't matter once exams roll around. (I should also add that grades in first year courses are pretty much all determined by one exam at the end of the semester. Doesn't law school sound fun?) In my grad program, everyone pretty much got As, so funding (or lack thereof) helped create a sense of an academic pecking order among the students. In law school, that academic pecking order is calculated and determined for you explicitly, regardless of how you're paying for school.

I also find it hard to get out of the academic habit of specialization. As I said, Here and Away both have programs in especially one field that interests me. Away's program is, I think, undeniably stronger. They have some amazing internationally-known scholars in the field, and they even offer a LLM (masters of law) in the subject. Here's program is not quite as good. But that said? Here has a program in this area, which sets it apart from probably 90% of law schools. And again, I'm not getting a Ph.D. - I'm getting a J.D. The J.D. is a general degree, in which I need to take courses in a lot of different subjects, not just one field that interests me most. Even within my area of interest, I'm not going to write a dissertation; I just need to take some courses to prepare myself to get a job. Most employers aren't going to care if I take those courses with Here's very-slightly-less distinguished scholars rather than Away's superstars. Moreover, who knows what other areas of law might draw me into their spell? Nonetheless, I keep thinking like an academic - I keep thinking of Away's program as if I'm going to be looking for a dissertation advisor.

I'm writing this not because I'm looking for advice on where I should go - though feel free to give some if you feel inspired -  but more to articulate these ideas to myself. I think I started to realize today how some of my academic habits are getting in my way. Then again, I'm not in law school yet - I may have this all wrong! But I have to make a final decision soon, and if this makes me feel better about staying Here and rejecting Away, then it serves a purpose. (What I think would be perfect would be to attend both schools, or to have Away and Here change places, since then I could have all the things I like about Away, AND live in the same place as my husband. But unless someone figures out some exciting things about physics, and soon, neither of those is an option.)

Comments

[negativecapability]

Aw, it's really because of me, right? ;)

[S. Worthen]

You can always get the LLM at Away later if you're still interested, right?

[George]

I cannot understand in any way why you would consider "away." You're kidding, right?

[Bardiac]

I have no advice, but it sounds like you're thinking things out well. I think my reaction to the funding offer would be like yours. But I remember when I entered grad school, the grad vice-chair might have been aware of my funding status, but no one else seemed to be, or to care. So I think realizing that once you accept one or the other you're starting at the same line with all the other students is important.

Good luck with your decision. :)

[PhilosopherP]

I suppose my thoughts are impacted by my own LDH....

I think you are correct in you analysis of the difference between PhD programs and law school. Add to that the fact that law school classes are much larger than PhD cohorts and I think you have it about right.

What you don't seem to consider is that the general assumption about law schools is that you'll stay in the region after you are done -- and most of the law school's connections for employment are regional. So, if you and NLDH like the region, then you should go to school there.

Since I know where you are, I can also say that I've known several very smart debaters who have chosen Here and liked it as much as one can like law school.

[Susan]

Such an interesting reflection. In grad school funding is dissociated from need. . .

[wolfa]

As the rankings are equal, choose based on where you want to practice later, since you will make the appropriate connections in law school. Unless they're top tier, in which case it matters less.

Also, every single person I know who went into law school -- except one, who had already been working in a specific field -- changed their fields of interest where they got there.

[New Kid on the Hallway]

About the regional thing - yeah, I didn't mention it in the post, but I do know that where you go to law school influences where you practice. I didn't bring it up because we're fine with either region - NLLDH doesn't see staying in his current job super long-term, so has no objection to leaving Here (in fact, he'd love to live in Away and encouraged me to apply in the first place). If I went to Away, it would be on the assumption that NLLDH would move there when he could get a job, and that we'd stay there after I finished. Weather-wise, I'd rather stay Here!

negcap, it is awfully appealing to think of knowing someone at Away! :-)

George, I'm not sure why considering Away is so unthinkable. Is it because Away sounds like a piece of garbage, or because the idea of moving away from my husband for a degree is so unthinkable? It's true that I don't think Away is probably worth it on the whole, but it is a good school.

[Dr. Virago]

It sounds like you don't have a problem accepting Here -- which is *clearly* where you should go, btw -- but rather, that you're having a problem rejecting Away. Just remember, though people work at Away, it is not itself a person. It will not have its heartbroken and you will not spend the rest of your life wondering if you chose the right One.

Go to Here. It sounds like most things are equal in terms of the two schools themselves, so then the decision is really about place and lifestyle. Do you really want NLLDH to be LDH again? Do you really want to leave a climate and a state where you're reasonably happy for one that's less appealing?

[ianqui]

I've never been to law school, but I suspect it's very different from grad school in that once you're there, you're just another faceless body in the classroom. Once you accept, the dean won't be offering you any more special offers, and you won't be treated like you're better than anyone else (unless you really are). It would be different in grad school. So I really don't think the flattery from Away should factor into your decision at all. I applaud your being honest about it, but it's not like Away is a small department that has a lot riding on the specific people they accept.

[New Kid on the Hallway]

See, I completely agree with you guys; it's not that I really think Away is a better choice, just that I think it's funny that if I hadn't gone the Ph.D. route to start, I wouldn't even have some of these questions. (I also don't think I'm worrying about hurting Away's feelings as much as I worry about passing up any advantage from being the chosen one! But again, I have to remind myself that that advantage won't last past the first day of class.) It's interesting because again, you're not supposed to enter a PhD program unfunded, but no one blinks an eye if you go to law school without any money, because of the way the rankings work - if I'd chosen a third or fourth tier school, I could have had a free ride, but going to a higher-ranked school is understood to be well worth going into debt for - which I don't think is usually the case in PhD programs. Maybe this is because it's harder to rank PhD programs in an absolute sense; USNR does rank PhD programs, but only once every 10 years, it seems like, and I don't know many people who followed the USNW rankings for PhDs as slavishly as people tend to for JDs. There are certainly less good PhD programs, but I don't think the distance between the weaker programs and the top-ranked programs is quite as wide as in the law school game. Again, though, I'm making this up as I go along...

[Matt Gabriele]

My thought: If you get to live at home, with NLLDH, by staying "here," then that might be the only pertinent issue...

[helenesch]

I have nothing new to add here, really (I agree--you should go to Here). But I do find your reflections on *why* you'd be drawn to consider going to Away to be fascinating--and exactly right. If this were a Ph.D. program you were considering, then the fact that Away is courting you (with money and flattery!) would matter so much more than it does in the case of law school.

And the weather: I really agree with you! I don't know why people move to climates where it gets that hot, ever (and I'd miss the snow!). It sounds like you like living where you are (part of this is that LDH is there, but that's not all of it). And since it's a good school, and has a program in the area that mosts interests you, I'd stay there...

[Dance]

Another vote for Here, and for the undue influence of the flattery. Incidentally, I went to a lower-ranked PhD program because they really wanted me, and I'm *still* not sure (4 years out) that it was the right decision.

One thing I did not see you think through--does the scholarship from Away make up not only for out-of-state tuition, but also for the cost of a second household and travel to see LDH? Does the flattery make up for the emotional cost of moving to a new place, being away from LDH?

[Artemis]

A friend of mine would settle hard decisions by flipping a coin (hear me out) - assign "heads" to Away and "tails" to here, then flip the coin. The important thing to do is analyze your feelings about what comes up. This is a good way to help you figure out some of the intangible issues that might not be very clear while you're submersed in the "Away likes me, they really like me" vs "Here accepted me, but do they like me?" debate in your brain.

That said, if it were my decision, I'd base it on how much I hate moving.....Good luck!

A

[dr]

Lots of advice coming at you. I'd just add (from watching my partner go through law school) that during the first two years you're really immersed in the local stuff: classes, study groups, and so on. In the third year, lots of people commute (and some even take the third year at another institution, still technically graduating from the original).

And, remember, too, that the dean of admissions doesn't have nearly as much influence over the entire school and faculty -- and therefore isn't nearly as much of an indication of anything -- as an admissions chair in a PhD-granting department.

Finally, I think that law as a field is generally much more savvy and honest about two-body problems. My partner couldn't believe that in academia it's utterly verboten to say, essentially, "I'm interested in this job in part because my partner is already based in your town." In law and other professional fields they're better at assuming you're a whole person (at least in that regard -- not in many others).

[New Kid on the Hallway]

Dance, yes, that's another thing I didn't mention but is a big deal - the cost of the additional household (and the emotional cost of being separated!). I was always set to stay Here precisely because of those things (and no, the scholarship from Away wouldn't make up for the cost of the second household, although if NLLDH moved there within a few months, it would probably come out even - that's what he said he would do, but I've been too scarred by the academic job search actually to believe it would happen that quickly!). Ironically, it's NLLDH's love for Away that got me considering it more seriously. He really really likes it there. But I still don't want to live apart based on the *possibility* of him getting a job in Away at some point in the future. If he gets a job in Away (or Elsewhere Entirely) while I'm in law school Here, I'd be willing to finish law school apart and look for a job in his new location, because it would be based on an actuality, not a possibility.

dr, I know what you mean about saying "my partner lives here" - I was reading a guide to surviving law school (of course I was - I'm such a geek) and was kind of amazed by the advice to play up your connection (familial, emotional, whatever) to the city where you're applying, because firms wanted to be sure you were genuinely interested in the area and would stick around - as well as playing up any personal connections you might have - because it is so different from academia! (Granted, in some parts of the country search committees favor people they know have some experience with their location, because they'll be more likely to stay; Rural Utopia had a lot of Rural U State University grads on staff, because they knew it meant those people would survive the weather! But saying, "I want to work here because my partner's in the area" in a cover letter isn't going to win you lots of points for most academic jobs.)

And Artemis, I may have to try the coin toss thing. ;-)

[LK]

Funny: considerations similar to your Here and Away problem were what kept me from even trying to become an academic (though I did get my ph.d.).

I could not make myself feel that it's justified to demand that people place at the disposal of a job their personal lives, their personal preferences, their rootedness somewhere (in other words: their social support system, their companions, and so on). But that might just be me, and I sure carried around a lot of guilt over this for years and years and years.

I like where I live and this fact is very important to me - more than any one particular job ever could be. Or even any one particular career. I had a hard enough time finding a place I liked, building up a network of people there, and feeling at home somewhere in the world. And then, too: I enjoy my partner's companionship so much more than I ever expected I would, I wouldn't give up living with him for any length of time if I can help it. So... I think for me, what you say in your last comment about wanting to base decisions on possibility but, rather, on actuality would be the deciding factor.

[LK]

I meant to say basing decisions NOT on possibility but rather on actuality. (surely this is a sign that it's time for dinner)

[New Kid on the Hallway]

I could not make myself feel that it's justified to demand that people place at the disposal of a job their personal lives, their personal preferences, their rootedness somewhere (in other words: their social support system, their companions, and so on).

I think that's incredibly HEALTHY - I think it's one of the signs of the sickness of academia that I'm considering doing this at all! (Though to be fair, ambition in a lot of fields might result in similar choices, sometimes.)

And after having moved around a lot for jobs in the last few years, one thing I really look forward to law school for is (how pathetic does this sound) making friends again - friends that I can see face to face, that is, and go out for coffee or go shopping with! (I love all you my virtual friends, and you keep me from going nuts, but the only adult I speak to in person on any regular basis is NLLDH - and while that's LOVELY, it can't quite be enough.) I am dying to build up a network of people and a home again. (Of course, NLLDH has said he'd happily pick up and move every few years for the rest of his life, so I'm not sure this will happen. Maybe I need to chain him to something...)

[New Kid on the Hallway]

(Oh, and hi, LK! Nice to see you again! Congrats on your imminent nestling!)

[What Now?]

No new advice, although I'd definitely vote for Here, but I'm really fascinated by this conversation and by your thinking through these issues. In my post-academic life, I keep occasionally running into these same realizations of how academia continues to shape my sense of the way the world works.

[Anastasia]

I just wanted to add that I read the advice re: funding in terms of earning potential. you just aren't ever going to earn enough as an academic to justify incurring much of a debt burden. not so with professional school, at which point paying for school looks more like an investment--and a sound one.

stay Here! I won't be there (or Away, which was an option) but I think on the whole it sounds like the friendliest option.

[Anastasia]

I just wanted to add that I read the advice re: funding in terms of earning potential. you just aren't ever going to earn enough as an academic to justify incurring much of a debt burden. not so with professional school, at which point paying for school looks more like an investment--and a sound one.

stay Here! I won't be there (or Away, which was an option) but I think on the whole it sounds like the friendliest option.

[Thoroughly Educated]

I am dying to build up a network of people and a home again.

Oh, I soooo feel this.

Nothing new to add, but I wanted to marvel at a degree of unanimity never before seen in a comment thread at NK's!

[LK]

(Thank you - and hi back - and congratulations to you too, by the way!)

(I tried to post this comment before but it seems to have been eaten by... my computer? Let's say that.)

The network of people and a home: whether you go Here or Away, you'll be making new friends, studying together with people, and eventually working with them. What's super-hard about academia is that, particularly in the humanities, one does one's work alone, so location change is even harder because one does not have the built-in friend-making scenes of most other professions.

I think it makes sense that law firms look for people with roots in a community. That means they're likely to be building a network there as well, which is good for business (though depending on the area of practice, this can vary). And I would guess that ultimately the way you conduct business is likely more important to a law firm than where you got your degree.

Which means that taking a long view - where can you and NLLDH see yourselves living for years and years and years, indefinitely, for as long as you want - is the question you'll really need to answer.

[New Kid on the Hallway]

You know, I'm so brainwashed that I HAVE to go where the job is (as is NLLDH, maybe to a lesser extent), that actually deciding where I'd like to live long-term is mind-boggling! And it's funny, because I like Here a LOT, as does NLLDH (though he misses Away's heat, but TOO BAD), and the idea of living here long-term is awesome, especially compared to some of the places we've lived/considered living. But I look back on my application process, and while two of the places in the country I love most are New England and the upper midwest, I didn't end up applying to realistic schools in those regions (where realistic = I had a good chance of admission). I can't decide how much of that is because NLLDH's employment interests lie in the west, how much is because the schools in those areas just didn't quite interest me as much as others (which was more due to my "specialist" attitude than any good reason to dismiss those schools), and how much is because the idea of choosing to live somewhere just because I like it there is just something I can't wrap my head around.

I think most of it actually was about NLLDH's employment prospects, but about February, when NLLDH was making it clear that he'd leave Here for Away, I kind of woke up and thought, Wait! I could have moved back to Boston! or the Twin Cities! (Of course, NLLDH's response to such ideas is, But you've lived there already - which for me is a plus, but for him, rules a place out! Argh.) I mean, I could have moved near my mom! (though she snowbirds in two parts of the country now, which makes that complicated.) And it just kind of didn't occur to me. I didn't have enough distance from the academic job mindset yet.

Anyway, I really do think Here is an awesome place to live - seriously, if you're not a hot weather person and you like having some winter, I think you can hardly do better than Here, weather-wise - but it is odd to think of settling here permanently because we have no particular emotional ties to the place - we just landed her for a job. On the other hand, it's a place lots of people decide to up and move to just because it's a cool place to live, so I don't feel like we've made a bad decision. It's just all weird to figure out.

[buggy n muggy]

I'm surprised that you did not apply to law school in hot, humid state where your Mom lives. Did you apply anywhere there? Or did you not get in there? Just curious.

[New Kid on the Hallway]

You know, buggy n muggy, I didn't apply there, for one good reason, one okay reason, and, to be honest, one really lame reason. The good reason is that my mom only lives there in the winter; she spends summers back in New England, so whether I ended up in NE or in hot & humid state, I'd be apart from her half the year anyway (which is one of the things that's complicated any plans to live near her - where do I choose?). Plus, she's still dealing with all the financial stuff from my dad's death (my dad made just enough money to make closing his estate incredibly complicated, apparently), and isn't sure if in the long term she'll be able to afford two homes, and if she has to pick one, she's said she'd stay in NE year round. So moving to tropical state wouldn't help me be close to her if she moves back to NE two years from now (she'd also probably stay in NE if she became unable to handle the travel back and forth). So that's the good reason, that it might not necessarily end up bringing me closer to my mom.

The okay reason is the weather - I'd miss snow, I'd hate the summers.

The really really really lame reason - and I'm admitting this is lame, and I'm not saying it's right, just acknowledging that it played a part - is that after spending all my educational years in the northern half of the country, I realize that I unconsciously don't think the schools in that state are very good. I know that's not true! But it's the Bad Yankee in me talking. (Although FWIW, the law schools there are ranked lower than the ones I applied to.) Feel free to excoriate me on this one! Again, I don't think it's right, I mention it because I honestly only just realized this was part of my thinking.

[A nony mouse]

This is retarded. You don't have a decision. Why on earth would you move away from your husband for a school that isn't really any better? If you are seriously considering it, you might just want to rethink this whole marriage thing.

[New Kid on the Hallway]

Why on earth would you move away from your husband for a school that isn't really any better?

Because the academic mindset makes it hard to think that the school that offers me money isn't automatically better than the one that doesn't? Because our experience as two (now former) academics has had us live apart twice before so we're used to thinking it might be necessary? Because my husband was in fact pushing for Away because he'd like to live there in the future? I'm not saying it's the right decision (and I'm not planning on going to Away), but there *are* reasons to consider it. And I appreciate the input but can you avoid the insults next time?

[happenstance]

Delurking to say Good Luck in whichever road you choose. In tandem with the majority, I'm inclining towards HERE ...

ps Hope you will continue blogging.

[happenstance]

Delurking to say Good Luck in whichever road you choose. In tandem with the majority, I'm inclining towards HERE ...

ps Hope you will continue blogging.